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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 21:16:05 GMT
Another great turnout tonight, something like 20 riders (perhaps more). A bit slower this week, but as I'm sure you twigged from teh data below, I myself worked much harder - my Power:HR drift was -12%, significantly under the -5% limit. Good session, I might even have sorelegs in the morning.
R.
Entire workout (131 watts):
Duration: 2:19:33
Work: 1101 kJ
TSS: 106.5 (intensity factor 0.677)
Norm Power: 203
VI: 1.54
Pw:HR: -11.83%
Pa:HR: -41.97%
Distance: 59.847 km
Elevation Gain: 577 m
Elevation Loss: 584 m
Grade: -0.0 % (-7 m)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 674 131 watts
Heart Rate: 0 183 139 bpm
Cadence: 29 118 83 rpm
Speed: 0 61 25.7 kph
Pace 0:59 0:00 2:20 min/km
Altitude: 34 181 82 m
Crank Torque: 0 94.6 15.0 N-m
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Post by Skinny Boy on Mar 31, 2009 21:31:43 GMT
No offence but it sounds like a complete waste of time given you average watts. I think you're much better off hitting threshold on your 'todd' with a set of 2 x 20's
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2009 21:46:28 GMT
Another great turnout tonight, something like 20 riders (perhaps more). A bit slower this week, but as I'm sure you twigged from teh data below, I myself worked much harder - my Power:HR drift was -12%, significantly under the -5% limit. Good session, I might even have sorelegs in the morning. R. Entire workout (131 watts): Duration: 2:19:33 Work: 1101 kJ TSS: 106.5 (intensity factor 0.677) Norm Power: 203 VI: 1.54 Pw:HR: -11.83% Pa:HR: -41.97% Distance: 59.847 km Elevation Gain: 577 m Elevation Loss: 584 m Grade: -0.0 % (-7 m) Min Max Avg Power: 0 674 131 watts Heart Rate: 0 183 139 bpm Cadence: 29 118 83 rpm Speed: 0 61 25.7 kph Pace 0:59 0:00 2:20 min/km Altitude: 34 181 82 m Crank Torque: 0 94.6 15.0 N-m I thought the idea of HR drift was to keep it as close to zero as possible, as it demonstrates good endurance. -12% would suggest that the intensity of the second half of the ride is too low or your endurance is poor (or have I got the numbers back to front?). 203 normalised power does seem very low if you're hoping to use these rides to prepare for racing. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 7:00:51 GMT
I used to think chaingangs were a waste of time too, Mr SkinnyBoy, but I've realised after years of learning that they form a core part of race preparation - there's something about the efforts required to close breaks, the experience of bunch riding, and the extra depth of brain engagement. Wattages are always down in bunch riding in any case (there's lots of coasting and drafting), only TTs and tests provide true watts indications. Training needs lots of different types of effort to be effective (IMHO). As for Power:HR decoupling, I was forced to return to the writings of the master (Mr Friel) home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling.aspx . His advice to keep decoupling (where hr drifts upwards, or power drifts downwards) to less than 5%. However, my drift was -12% last night, which I guess means my HR was drifting DOWNWARDS, or my power was drafting UPWARDS. That would suggest I wa recovering over the course of the chaingang, or resting moretowards the end. Some more analysis required I think, will hit the spreedsheets later tonight.. R. |
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Post by chamoniards on Apr 1, 2009 8:11:29 GMT
Keep doing the chaingangs and doing intervals would be my advice. Training on your own all of the time gets boring so it's good to have a burn up on the chaingangs now and again.
Just for comparisons sake here's the same data from my race last Sunday where I had a puncture at the start so spent a large part of the race riding on my own. Because of the wheel change speed and distance weren't recorded.
My Pw:HR drift was 8.8%. Not sure what that means, I don't really pay any attention to it. Maybe you can explain Richard?
race:
Duration: 2:14:13
Work: 2432 kJ
TSS: 196.5 (intensity factor 0.937)
Norm Power: 324
VI: 1.07
Pw:HR: 8.8%
Pa:HR: 100%
Distance: 10.085 km
Elevation Gain: 295 m
Elevation Loss: 311 m
Grade: -0.2 % (-16 m)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 1107 302 watts
Heart Rate: 89 178 156 bpm
Cadence: 20 130 84 rpm
Speed: 0 58 4.5 kph
Pace 1:02 0:00 13:19 min/km
Altitude: 158 183 166 m
Crank Torque: 0 138.2 34.4 N-m
Temperature: 8 14 9.7 Celsius
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 9:10:15 GMT
I know it's not quite the point, but as with most things I reckon you get as much out of chaingangs as you put into them - and that's what's good about them. Take your turns at the front if you're feeling good or sit in if you need a rest. Not sure where sitting in until the great polhill attack gets anyone though.
In all this stat-ic no one ever seems to mention position on the bike. I noticed last night that apart from a couple of occasions - down polhill and down badgers - that hardly anyone was on the drops. Shouldn't a part of training also be to develop a more efficient position that can be maintained at speed, for when you're not in a bunch.
Using the highly subjective measure of 'feeling it in my water' last night's gang - and I hate to say this for fear of bringing an increased world of pain down upon myself - did seem slow. That said, I don't think chaingangs are ever a waste of time, for they are in themselves good entertainment.
Elated of Sydenham.
R
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 10:19:01 GMT
Keep doing the chaingangs and doing intervals would be my advice. Training on your own all of the time gets boring so it's good to have a burn up on the chaingangs now and again. Yes it's good to hook up with your pals and keep the legs spinning. Chaingangs are fun! But at this time of year and onwards the racing should hone the bunch riding skills, so from a purely training point of view so long as you're getting a race or race simulation effort once or twice a week you should be ok. But the intervals are necessary for the efforts needed to break, bridge, sprint and TT to victory, not to mention the physical systemic adaption it brings. So I think it's better to do the chaingangs when you can, for specific training goals (including for fun), and not at the expense of intervals. However, if you are new to the effort needed to complete a chaingang, or want to rebuild that fitness, then it's perfect for getting your fitness up to race intensity. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 11:52:32 GMT
Afternoon all
two points:
i'm pleased to read someone has adjusted the target speed on the website for tues/thurs chaingangs to the more realistic and welcoming 21-22mph. i think it will benefit the wednesday night more than anything.
Also, it has just started to dawn on me that since going out on the tues/thurs chaingangs, i never seem to see the club's prominant 2nd cat riders - basically the riders that did the wally. i know some of you have been there on some occassions i have been but prior to joining tues/thurs i'd assumed it was a given the stronger riders would be doing this twice a week for race preparation. that doesn't appear so....
it has been touched on slightly in this thread but what are the reasons? are the tues/thurs chaingangs thought of as ok training but not great? if so, what else are the stronger riders up to for training?
do you get to a certain level and from then on the only way to imrpove yourself is getting on the turbo several times a week?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 13:06:04 GMT
do you get to a certain level and from then on the only way to imrpove yourself is getting on the turbo several times a week? This is the way I see it. I can ride well enough to stay in most company (except on hills) and have finished in the bunch with elites and national pros. But I can never beat them without training the effort that gets a gap. So, at least for me, that's where I put my focus. I can't speak for anyone else, though... Also the chaingang seems slower these days, so I question what I get out of it when I'm racing anyway (and I'm just a lowly 3rd cat). The faster riders are traditionally doing the gang in the winter. I floated the idea of a fast chaingang, an intermediate chaingang and a womens'/beginners chaingang, but no one picked up on the idea at the time. PS Nice avatar...!! |
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Post by daniel on Apr 1, 2009 13:16:44 GMT
I think it depends very much on the individual. I personally don’t do that many chaingangs for a number of reasons. Firstly as I live in Dalston it’s quite a long session by the time I’ve get back home so it’s more efficient to do an hour or so on the turbo.
Secondly doing intervals on the turbo allows you to be very specific in what you are training for. The chaingang even when well organized is more difficult to be so specific or controlled which I guess in many ways is part of its appeal.
I try to plan out my weeks training based on doing certain types of sessions which often sit outside of how the chaingang normally operates.
Saying all of that I think the chaingang is very useful especially in terms of group riding at a high speed. Also for those who find the turbo unappealing it provides an intense training session. As already mentioned in this thread the gang also provides a break from the turbo and a chance burn it up which is always good fun.
As the weather improves and the season picks up I’m planning on doing more gangs and if previous seasons are anything to go by I’m sure you’ll see more and more attending.
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Post by Skinny Boy on Apr 1, 2009 14:15:37 GMT
mmm nice debate. The point I'm making is that the key to endurance cycling is threshold/TT power. You can practise closing gaps on chain gangs as much as you want. But if you're threshold/1 hour TT power is south of 250 watts sooner or later you'll get dropped once you come up against guys like Kevin who can bang out 340watts per hour.
People mistakenly believe that hard anaerobic effort (30sec-2mins) are the way to solve this problem when they're much better off training their sustainable power. If this is done you won't be gasping when it come to constantly trying to close gaps cause you' wont have gone too deep.
It was interesting this weekend I raced against aerobic monster (Angus Macalister (NP) and it was amazing how effortlessely he was able to cover attacks without blowing out of his arse. I bet his threshold power is in the 370+watt range.
To sum it only takes a few chain gangs/races to train your jumps and ability to attack. For most guys who've been racing a while assuming your bunch skills are up to scratch its the 'threshold power' that really determines how well you're do in most races.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 14:38:26 GMT
Afternoon all two points: i'm pleased to read someone has adjusted the target speed on the website for tues/thurs chaingangs to the more realistic and welcoming 21-22mph. i think it will benefit the wednesday night more than anything. Also, it has just started to dawn on me that since going out on the tues/thurs chaingangs, i never seem to see the club's prominant 2nd cat riders - basically the riders that did the wally. i know some of you have been there on some occassions i have been but prior to joining tues/thurs i'd assumed it was a given the stronger riders would be doing this twice a week for race preparation. that doesn't appear so.... it has been touched on slightly in this thread but what are the reasons? are the tues/thurs chaingangs thought of as ok training but not great? if so, what else are the stronger riders up to for training? do you get to a certain level and from then on the only way to imrpove yourself is getting on the turbo several times a week? I've never been a great fan of chaingangs. My main reason for not doing them is that if I've raced hard on a Sunday it's too soon for me to go hard again and Thurdsay is too close to the weekend's races. I tend to do my hard mid-week session on a Wednesday. But as has been mentioned elsewhere, if ridden properly they are a great way of learning bike skills. Another reason I don't like them is I'd rather get my training done and dusted well before 9.30pm. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 14:47:40 GMT
Phil also likes to keep that big V8 engine under wraps until race day...
I'd say you'll eventually see all the 2nd cats (apart from PJ) out at some stage, although probably not all at the same time. I'm a big fan of the gang (when I'm actually training, that is) for two reasons - nothing prepares you more for riding fast in a bunch than riding fast in a bunch. And I'd sooner do a chaingang on a unicycle than get on the turbot again. Whilst juggling.
If you're happy doing turbot sessions, though, they're probably more effective for out-and-out gain.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2009 14:54:19 GMT
The average speed on the Wednesday fast group doesn't seem to be far off Tues/Thurs - last week I had 19.7mph.
According to Chris Carmichael, the winning ability can be distilled down to the ability to produce great power at lactate threshold. LT is the maximum intensity a rider can sustain for 30 to 60 minutes and if I understand correctly, a good approximation of this is your average heart rate for 30minutes of sustained riding as hard as you can.
The idea is then to do short efforts at 5-10 bpm below your LT. It is advised that it should be done no more than twice a week, for no more than three weeks without a one week break, and for no more than two cycles without a month of training at 30 bpm below LT. As an example, Armstrong can (or I should probably write could) ride at 90-93% of LT for an hour.
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Post by skinny boy on Apr 1, 2009 15:50:36 GMT
The average speed on the Wednesday fast group doesn't seem to be far off Tues/Thurs - last week I had 19.7mph. According to Chris Carmichael, the winning ability can be distilled down to the ability to produce great power at lactate threshold. LT is the maximum intensity a rider can sustain for 30 to 60 minutes and if I understand correctly, a good approximation of this is your average heart rate for 30minutes of sustained riding as hard as you can. The idea is then to do short efforts at 5-10 bpm below your LT. It is advised that it should be done no more than twice a week, for no more than three weeks without a one week break, and for no more than two cycles without a month of training at 30 bpm below LT. As an example, Armstrong can (or I should probably write could) ride at 90-93% of LT for an hour. Just to clarify lactate Threshold - the point at which blood lactae begins to increase significantly above base line levels is actually not that great in terms of intensity - despite what celebrity coaches say. You can ride at LT for up to a 3 hours. Its kinda club run pace. Road Races and TT's take place at and intensity generally much above LT pace (+15%). If he is refering to Functional Threshold or TT pace as I suspect he is then what he recommends is good |
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