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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 10:38:49 GMT
Hi all,
It's been very good to see the club chaingangs looking so popular again but there have been some issues with the fast group.
I'm all for pushing yourself (it's the best way to get stronger) but if you haven't seen the front of the group once before getting pinged off the back (there were quite a few this week) the fast group is currently too fast. If you're an active part of the group who then gets dropped further into the ride then there's absolutely no-shame in that (see first comment).
Ideally the groups shouldn't really be much bigger than 10 otherwise they get a bit untidy/dangerous. This becomes even more of a problem when only half or less of the group are actively rotating.
Aside from assisting in making you a stronger rider a good chaingang will also help your close riding skills and subsequently make you a better racer (the aim of the fast group). If you're hanging on for dear life and then riding solo/in twos/threes you're not getting the full benefit.
As mentioned in the newsletter it is very Darwinian and if a group is too big, too messy etc there are deliberate thinning out efforts!
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Post by Andy Davidson on May 18, 2019 6:40:00 GMT
It’s a fair cop Kier. I want to stretch myself and need to ride faster than the intermediate group and thought the fast group might be do-able given there is a racers chaingang now. Getting dropped on Layhams I realised that was Obviously not the case! I plan to come along next week. If anyone else was dropped earlier than they would have liked maybe we can form a fast ‘B group’ and congregate closer to the front of the group and head off after the inters have gone? Going forwards - isn’t there a more objective measure of pace / performance we can use to avoid confusion? Like you can only ride the fast group if you’re hitting a certain FTP / kilo? Or achieved a certain time solo on a well known strava segment?
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Post by Martin Headon on May 18, 2019 13:59:02 GMT
Chaingangs do always seem to cause as much headache as leg ache! A lot to discuss and unpick here. A few thoughts.
The first thing I'd say is also a mea culpa, I've been dropped on Layhams after clinging on to the coat-tails of the fastest group. However when I looked on Strava afterwards, I saw that a rider of similar ability in the second group spent a lot of time waiting up for the group to re-form, which would have left me getting very cold on a chilly Spring evening. So I was metaphorically and physically in no-mans-land between the two groups.
There's also a tendency for dropped riders to chase, rather than accept defeat and wait for other casualties to join forces with. In fact on the same chaingang as above, there were 3 or 4 riders all chasing each other between the two main groups (which must have been a headache for the TV director and the graphics guys, let's face it).
Frankly, it's going to be hard to get people to admit at Elmer's End that they can't hack the pace. Everyone loves a challenge. The only thing I can think of is to suggest that it's made clear at the start that any rider who isn't riding comfortably with the leaders by the top of Layhams waits there for 2 or 3 minutes until a "fast group dropouts and speedy chasers" group can be formed for the rest of the course.
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Post by Sara Barman on May 18, 2019 15:03:16 GMT
Solution: race radios!
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 16:32:59 GMT
It's self-selecting. If you aren't quick enough, you get dropped. No longer a problem for the fast group surely? Come back next week, try harder, hang on for longer. Keep at it until you can last the distance. I can't see any good reason to discourage people from having a go, although I can see that an intermediate group might be worth exploring if there are sufficient numbers.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 17:24:32 GMT
It's self-selecting. If you aren't quick enough, you get dropped. No longer a problem for the fast group surely? Come back next week, try harder, hang on for longer. Keep at it until you can last the distance. I can't see any good reason to discourage people from having a go, although I can see that an intermediate group might be worth exploring if there are sufficient numbers. Not discouraging people to have a go but if you're getting dropped before completing a single rotation you're not seeing the benefit. The numbers have been there for more than one intermediate group, or a second fast group if that's more palatable?
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Post by Sara Barman on May 20, 2019 17:26:56 GMT
Group 1, 1a, 1b...
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 17:31:09 GMT
It’s a fair cop Kier. I want to stretch myself and need to ride faster than the intermediate group and thought the fast group might be do-able given there is a racers chaingang now. Getting dropped on Layhams I realised that was Obviously not the case! I plan to come along next week. If anyone else was dropped earlier than they would have liked maybe we can form a fast ‘B group’ and congregate closer to the front of the group and head off after the inters have gone? Going forwards - isn’t there a more objective measure of pace / performance we can use to avoid confusion? Like you can only ride the fast group if you’re hitting a certain FTP / kilo? Or achieved a certain time solo on a well known strava segment? It will vary from week-to-week as to who turns up I suspect Andy, depending on that week's racing etc. There were defo the numbers for a second fast group there last week but I think the dropped riders were in small groups in the end. It's very difficult to quantify based on FTP or similar as ability to recover and complete anaerobic surges are also key (as they are when racing). It's probably easier to keep turning up and recognise faces as to judging who you are currently on a par with/stronger/weaker etc. Hope I didn't put you or anyone off with the post. Just want everyone to benefit from tidier chaingangs and the skills that come with those!
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Post by Serge Bouschet on May 20, 2019 18:01:04 GMT
It’s a fair cop Kier. I want to stretch myself and need to ride faster than the intermediate group and thought the fast group might be do-able given there is a racers chaingang now. Getting dropped on Layhams I realised that was Obviously not the case! I plan to come along next week. If anyone else was dropped earlier than they would have liked maybe we can form a fast ‘B group’ and congregate closer to the front of the group and head off after the inters have gone? Going forwards - isn’t there a more objective measure of pace / performance we can use to avoid confusion? Like you can only ride the fast group if you’re hitting a certain FTP / kilo? Or achieved a certain time solo on a well known strava segment? An easy solution to this is to have the fastest group ride first, then second fattest... So on and so forth. If you get dropped, it should not be long before the next group catches you. It's always worked this way, are we not following this anymore? The first chaingang I did last year I set off with the last group, thinking it was a medium paced one. I got dropped on Layham (it was indeed the fast group) and then it was game over, solo ride all the way. For some reasons, the slow and medium groups were up the road. There's no need for FTP, you know by west Wickham if you've made the right choice.
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Post by jonathanmaher on May 20, 2019 19:17:26 GMT
easy solution to this is to have the fastest group ride first, then second fattest... So on and so forth. I assume you meant “second fastest” group Keir? Especially as I’ve not been doing the chaingangs this year..
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Post by Serge Bouschet on May 20, 2019 19:24:25 GMT
It clearly was a slip of the predictive keyboard. They're becoming quite clever though...
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Post by chrisdavey on May 20, 2019 21:08:31 GMT
My experience last week was as follows; set off with the faster group after riding with that group through the winter, after coming through only 3 or 4 times, got dropped having totally under estimated where my legs were at after a long mountain bike ride at the weekend. I was quite happy to flick the elbow, shout that I wasn't coming through and make it round at my own pace. What was surprising was to see a group the same size as those who I'd been rotating through with just sat on their wheels.
I got caught by 4 breakaway B's later at the bottom of Pole lane, but accidentally dropped them on the flats/ descents over the other side, so a lot of solo riding in the end. Which I didn't mind given where my legs were at.
My 2 cents; 1)If you're just sat on the wheel and not coming through you should either participate and rotate, or if you're no longer able to, drop yourself and wait for a slower (maybe less "darwinian") group to pick you up. Aka "The Dignity Drop". 2) You'd get picked up much quicker if there was an intermediate group hoovering people up.
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Post by elwyn powell on May 20, 2019 21:24:44 GMT
As several people have said, with the numbers we have been getting recently, there are easily enough for 3 groups. 6 people is sufficient for a chaingang and is far better than some of the 18-20 that have jumped on the fast group some weeks (more time at the front, less range of fitness, safer riding) The usual practice seems to be that the proper fast guys start off and then there is a group of semi-fast people who you can see considering their options and then one by one they look around and see less people remaioning so, sheep-like, jump on the back of the now significantly over-sized fast group as they don't want to feel they aren't going to get a good workout. I admit that I have sometimes been one of the last (and slowest) sheep to jump on but I was happy to wait at the top of Layhams last week and it is defintiely preferable to a solo ride around. Anyway, I think if people understand that there is going to be a "second fast group" to head out soon after the "first fast group" then the issue would soon go away. As with Andy, I am happy to aim to create/join such a group Wednesday and hopefully make it to the top of Layhams with said group!
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Post by chrisdavey on May 21, 2019 7:27:00 GMT
All good points indeed. Seeming as 3's a magic number, I'll happily join you guys in the second fast group/ 1b group/ b+ group this week.
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Post by simonenglish on May 21, 2019 8:23:20 GMT
Is there anyone with decent coaching experience who can suggest how to turn this into a training exercise?
Thinking cat & mouse...split into 3 groups, set off in 7 min intervals, slowest group first. Other 2 groups need to catch the prev group by the end of Layhams, say. Regroup, do the same back
Fast groups get to smash it, slower groups get to feel the fear.
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