Dropped riders at Palace

[Deleted]

I think dropped riders at Palace should be asked to drop out of the race. I know they pull people out with 5 to go but last night there were little groups of twos and threes all over the circuit. In fact there were a couple of large groups of dropped riders from both men's races.

Personally, I can never find the motivation to carry on when I have been dropped...

I had a chat with the commisaire about this last night...he was reluctant to insist people pull out as they've paid their money. It's not a sportive though it's a crit race on a very tight circuit and at times last night it felt dangerous flying through corners with dropped riders left and right.

It would make judging the races easier too. Maybe we can't tell people they have to drop out but perhaps an appeal to people's better nature might work...?

The women's race always splits so that has to be an exception.

[Deleted]

I'd agree in principle, but it could be tricky to manage:

There were far more who didn't finish in the first group last night than did. Were we in a break or were they dropped?

If 15 go clear and 20 remain, are they to be pulled out?

I thought I was dropped a couple of times last night, but after throwing my virtual grappling hook around your seatpost I grovelled on till the bitter end.

(btw I had to leave on pain of death, but if there wasn't a post-Palace snifter session somewhere last night we should hang our heads in shame that the morals that made this club so noble aren't being observed).

[mick vance]

How would dropped riders gain more experience (with an end result in eventually not being dropped)?

I was dropped quite early and was lapped once- the lead group were kind enough to let me know they were coming so I stayed out of their way. Maybe the lead group sees it differently?

Chris, you might suffer from a motivation loss to keep riding once dropped, but for me- being dropped is the primary source of motivation to keep working. If I cant at lest get some time on the circuit, I might as well pootle off to Hillingdon

Judging the race should be too tricky as dropped riders are off the circuit well before the finish. The comminsares should try to remember who is chasing and who is leading (Nick W's face was a sight when he was told to do another lap after being given the bell early!)

[Deleted]

I'm no expert, but I did mashal the first CP crit and the 3/4's split in to 3 groups from the off. The second group got back on about 30 mins or so in to the race, or at least very late. Maybe only 5-10 laps from the finish. One of those guys might have ended up placing...

I raced my first 3/4 crit last night and stayed in the lead group til 30 mins or so when 15 or so got away (from what I could see). A group of us fought for the rest of the race to try and get back. We weren't lapped by the lead group.

I think it would be a little unfair to pull those off who are working hard in a group that has not been lapped by the leaders of their category. Surely their race is not over?

I did however see a lot of riders just riding around after having given up however, and if lapped then you are done...

[Deleted]

I disagree Chris. I think it would stifle riders ability to develop their Palace skills and progress from being dropped to being a 'bunch' finisher. It might also send out the wrong message about Palace’s accessibility by gaining a reputation as a race for only those who are good enough to hang on. How intimidating would that be for new comers? Its intimidating enough as it is!

When I think back to when I first raced Palace a couple of years ago getting dropped was expected. Holding on for as long as I could was the challenge and then once dropped I used the remaining time to improve my cornering and get a better feel for the circuit. Invaluable. And getting out of the way when needed of course.

[Ben Knapp]

I agree with Mark but I think there is also room for improvement with people's behavior on the circuit once they are dropped and also when their race ends.

The E/1/2 race was impacted in the last lap with those from the 3/4 and Women's races rolling around the circuit at walking speed and getting in the way. Just a lack of awareness from some people I think whilst they recover from their sprint and race finishes.

The premature bell ringing confused things, but in Nick's own words "that's all part of the Palace charm".

A loud haler for the briefing might help, I doubt half the 3/4s and women heard what the comm said last nmight before the start.

On a positive note - another brilliant night in the park with a great atmosphere and very appreciated marshals and volunteers.

And yes - beers were had at the Woodhouse as they will be every week.

[Alex Ioannides]

I hear what you're saying Chris, especially as there is a propensity for using lapped riders as vehicles for attacking and stringing-out the main races...

However, given that a non-trivial amount of people get dropped within the first 5 laps, it's a bit harsh. A lot of those riders will go on and form groups and have a decent race too. Removing this would detract from the low-key and local feel of the night.

Perhaps we could suggest that all dropped riders ride in single-file on the left of the circuit to bring a little order to the chaos?

[Deleted]

This is a tricky one. Women's and E12 I don't think are a problem but with the 3/4 I'm kind of with Chris. I said the same to the comms last night after I saw 3 or 4 riders from the 3/4 still riding around *after* the 3/4 race had ended, but then as Mat said last night, if you're dropped after 1 lap are you told to come off the track? And as David says who decides when you are dropped? But it is a race and not a training ride so if its clear you have no chance of being able to be part of the race then I think you should be pulled - on that circuit at least.

I gave up early last night after 10 minutes because it was clear I wasn't going to challenge for any sort of place. I felt as though I'd been effectively dropped as the line in front to the head of the race was strung out over 150+ metres and I was at least 15 riders back. I sat up and I was amazed at how many we're behind me happy to keep killing themselves on a pointless chase. If it split into clear groups then it would be easier to argue for riders staying on the track but it smashes into 1's and 2's and as Chris says its both dangerous and confusing for the comms.

So no clear answers but I think a tougher policy enforced by a megaphone calling out riders numbersforcing them to stop should be brought in. Perhaps some sort of devil system where after 5 laps the last rider or group on each lap is pulled until there's a more manageable 15-20 riders left in the race?

[Deleted]

It's always been like this and so it should remain. Riding through duff riders is part of the game at Palace and an exercise in itself.
If we cut it further then the field will be smaller as we alienate those that deem themselves no hopers.
Last night was a quirk in that from the gun all Cats were split to shreds in long trains and a high proportion of inexperienced riders in the mix made for interesting viewing. Those inexperienced riders will learn how it is at Palace, how it should always be...
^^

[Deleted]

Chief comm should address the race from the mid point on the grid, not the front. Classic presentation error. Also riders should be polite enough not to talk over any info given. As for the racing, if its not your night at Palace you'll know pretty quick and either excuse yourself or ride around with other shelled characters. I'm with Mark O on the Palace format and it should be viewed and embraced as a tight urban circuit where fitness and skill levels are on display and dealing with traffic is part of it.

[Deleted]

Maybe instead of dropped riders it should be dropped and lapped riders...or on the discretion of the comm? If people are bimbling round having a chat, pull them off. If the race has split into 2 large groups, maybe pull the second group out.

I realise it's not straight forward and I don't want to start blaming dropped riders for being in the way. I would say though that this week on three or four separate occasions dropped riders effected the character of the race, either with people using them as an opportunity to attack or people having to use their brakes or change their line and losing places. Throw in the potential for an accident and I think that's too much.

As I said, I know it's not straight forward and I also agree that the slight feeling of chaos is all part of Palace's charm.

Nice lively debate though...

[jonathanmaher]

2 things:

-make it abundantly clear to all riders that if any lead group passes you MUST move off the racing line and let them pass under threat of DQ (F1 style)

-pull out any riders that get lapped twice by their own cat. That will stop people "riding around chatting", but still let those that are dropped but want to keep racing continue.

Otherwise, business as usual - palace is about tight racing, corners, and getting dropped. There's always Hillingdon for those who want an easier ride.

[Deleted]

Agree with Jon here.

If dropped riders stay left and away from the race line it shouldn't be a problem.

The E12 race did split because some dropped riders were 3 abreast and they got in the way. We shouted to them to move over, but with a corner coming up it disrupted the pace.

The comm should mention this in the race briefing. I can't remember him doing so in the previous briefing (unless I wasn't listening again)

[Deleted]

I think it's unfair to ask the Chief Comm to pull a rider off at Palace or anywhere else.







Gets coat.

[Deleted]

The busyness and constant passing is part of the character of that relatively small circuit. There's always Cyclopark or Hillingdon...

Perhaps the marshalls could look out for riders who are reduced to cruising round and give them a warning to hold their line if there's a group approaching that's about to steam through.